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| "REAL" SUBMISSION July 3, 2006 I posted the following in my YahooGroup a few days ago. Over the next day or so I'll post some of the interesting comments that followed my sharing of these thoughts. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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Earlier tonight, I read a comment in which someone was explaining what a "genuine submissive" would do in a particular situation. The crux of the statement was, if you're a genuine well-trained submissive, you won't be that effected by your own orgasm. First of all, whenever I read the phrase "a real submissive" (a real Domme, etc) or something similiar, I want to bang my head on something hard. Well, actually, I want to bang someone else's head on something hard ;) (Now you know I'm just kidding ... sort of). Frequently I'll hear people in the D/s, LFA (Loving Female Authority), BDSM lifestyles profess they think the vanilla world should loosen up and be more open-minded to alternative ways of looking at things - yet often they are just as quick to create a different but equally constrictive box within the lifestyle. Is there such a thing as a "real" Domme or a "real" submissive? If there is, I want to know who set the definition. There are varying degrees of most things in life and I believe there are varying degrees of submission. One is not more or less real than the others, they're just different. Essentially, I think "real submission" is whatever two people (a dominant partner and a submissive partner) decide it is - as long as there is *some* level of power exchange. I may want less from someone than say a hard core Domme who wants a total slave. Does that mean someone who serves me isn't a submissive and someone who gives up all their rights to someone else is? I certainly don't believe so. On another note, when someone says that "genuine submission" shouldn't be motivated by the male's sexual urges but should be solely motivated by his desire to please the Lady, aren't we sending mixed messages here? So many support male chastity because they say it increases the male's submissiveness. Are we thinking the male is more docile and more attentive because the less sex he gets, the more he's NOT going to want it and the more he's NOT going to think about it? Hmm... maybe for some, but it's been my experience it just increases the desire and the thoughts of sex. (Ask any man how long it has been since the last time he had sex and/or masturbated. Most can tell you to the day. If they're in a locked device, almost every one can tell you how long it has been.) Yes, during periods of chastity, even short ones, the focus does turn more to the woman who is controlling her cock (well his, but you know what I mean - I love knowing that it is my cock to do with whatever I wish). In my opinion, this is a *channeling* of his sexual desires, not an elimination of it. Yes, a submissive man desires to please and he has sexual urges as well - urges he wants to have controlled. Personally, I like knowing I can elicit both and control both ;) Lastly, I do not think it is truly possible for a submissive to be selfless. To be sure there are a few acts in life that are selfless, but for the most part, we do things because we get something out of it. "All behavior is purposeful." If a submissive is motivated to please, then he feel good about the acts he's done to please the Domme - sexual or otherwise. It fulfills something that is a part of him and I think this is wonderful. No one questions him about feeling good about doing it or questions the genuineness of his submission. If he does something, however, to please the Domme and it arouses him... why is this not genuine submission as well? Somehow, it seems a few people have associated the term submissive with selflessness and I don't think it's the same. I'm ok with the fact that he "gets" something out of his submission. To me, this does not detract from his gift at all as long as his motivation is something that I can accept. After all I can quite easily control not only his actions but his motives as well ;) ~~~ In response to the above, Will Walker wrote: I tend to think of my own submissive status as a journey, a process that is ongoing. Starting later in life, I'm really just beginning to experiment with it; had I started earlier, I'd probably be much farther along. But I had to wait for the internet.... One of the most common habits humans have - rich or poor, men or women, straight or kinky - is the tendency to impose order on a disorderly world, whether that order is an illusion or not. Apparently, that's wired into our heads. It's probably just a series of chemical reactions, part of how we're put together. The trick is to recognize that need, and make a conscious effort not to let it intrude on your reasoning process. But that requires a modicum of self-awareness, and it's sometimes a difficult read. As every guy knows, it is much easier to just let your glands do your thinking. And the world is full of people who don't make much of an effort. This world is full of labelers, and the BDSM community's isolation and mistreatment no doubt lends itself to an "us vs. them" outlook. In their case, all these "true submissive" judgements are even more unfortunate, because they make it more difficult for newcomers to join in. Plus, there's very little real research on the scene, since it's mostly under the radar, so opinions fill that void... opinions that can easily masquerade as facts down the line. But I must say, during the times I've spent with local BDSM devotees, I've found them to be far more open and welcoming than I ever thought they would be, from my readings on the subject. That's especially true of my city's BDSM groups. When I was active, they were all interested in helping me find my way, wherever that led. In fact, they are some of the nicest, most supportive people I've ever met. Will * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Rita wrote:In a perfect world definitions of "real submissive" and Real Domme" might have a place. But really it doesn't matter. In any relationship there will be a dominant partner and a submissive partner. Is the submissive partner less that "real"? Of course not. And it doesn't have to be a Domme/sub relationship. All realtionships work that way... though some will try to tell you that they are equal. But it's a lie. There is no equality. So in this I definitely agree with Lady Julia. As to male chastity, from my experience when boys are denied orgasm, they are more acquiescent, much more acquiescent. The longer they are denied and teased, the more they acquiesce. It's simple logic. They have given us control of what they so desperately need. And they will now do anything to get it back. Ok, it's not quite that simple... but it's like a diet. The minute you go on a diet you start thinking about food... and all the WRONG foods! When you take away a boy's permission to have an orgasm... it's all he can think about. If you think that it is his submission, then more power to you. But it's more hormones than submission. He has already submitted if he has agreed to go without ograsm, hasn't he??? But there are submission... and... submission. I have yet to find a boy who is submissive on a level different from personal biological factors. Just my opinion. :) Rita * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
paull wrote:
When you first meet someone, and begin to interact, there is a period of adjustment and getting to know one another. This is true in in any relationship; vanilla or bdsm. It all starts with "attraction"; those features about each other that draw one in deeper. Many of those things are physical or just "interesting", like eye color, shape, voice, laugh, etc. If both find traits or appearance they like, then it moves on. I just want to establish these thoughts as a base to discussion of "true Dominance/Submission". It is all a relative perception on D/s. When you look at sites like alt.com, and begin to browse the profiles, there is a laundry list of sorts on what types of scenes, play, and behavior is desired by each member. Taking these into account, members can match desires to a potential partner, and eliminate those that are repugnant due to unsuitable expectations or acts that are well beyond the limits of either person. Again, it is a step in a D/s relationship. I have met a few dominas in real time from such explorations, and in some, we didn't pass phase one. We just didn't "click" for chemistry or attraction in person. There are a couple that I would certainly love to see again, but that is another long story, and off-subject here. To those who would deny their own sexuality, I would say "BS!". There are not many eunichs in the world and those who have that experience would explain how painful the aftermath is from the operation, both physically and emotionally. Try an internet search on the topic, and see those of you who really want to be asexual in your D/s life. Trying to boil down the complexity of personalities into one definition of submission is impossible. The submissive that is a slave in a dungeon is no more of a submissive than the man who plays slave on weekends with his mistress. They both relish giving up control to their alluring female. In my mind, both are "true submissives". I don't think you define submissive by the extent of their conditions in life. It is a state of mind. Personally, I find that it gives me pleasure to provide service to an alluring and dominant woman, both socially and physically. I was raised as an "old school gentleman" with great respect for women. I see equal rights as important in society of course, and yet I enjoy the arrangement of D/s outside of the workplace. Physically, it excites me to be under her control, her delight is paramount, and her imagination takes me to heights of lust. paull * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
soulbits wrote: i believe You are absolutely correct in Your statements. what may be comfortable for some in terms of expressing their submissive nature, wouldn't be right for someone else. this does not make one less of a submissive or slave. as You pointed out, the same goes for a Dom/me. just like everything in life, there are shades of grey and everyone has their own opinions and desires. how we chose to fulfill those desires should be what works for us, not someone else. in terms of chastity, i see it mostly as a carrot for the slave - behave properly and follow my instructions and i will allow you release, don't be and you will be denied longer. for those that chose to use and accept chastity, it is more of a symbol of the slave's desire to prove his obedience to his Domme then a device to 'get' the slave to obey. michael * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sleep Weaver wrote:
"Real" Dom/me and Submissive get thrown around alot. For me, I feel that a "real" Dom/me or submissive, is someone that truly understand the dynamic of the relationship that they are in. One that understands that a Dom/me has just as much to learn from a submissive, and a submissive has to learn from a Dom/me. I always used to get into arguments with "Dom" that would claim they have trained a submissive for others. Yeah, I just rolled my eyes at that and asked "trained them for what?" and the reply always "to be a true submissive for their new master." I just laughed and argued, how can you train the dynamic when all the pieces aren't there? Perhaps you've trained them for "your dynamic" but how can you train them for anothers dynamic? (He was claiming beyond the things one would learn beyond "charm school" or how to say your P&Qs) In my mind, I didn't consider that person a "real Dom." The understanding of the dynamic just wasn't there with his one fits all mentality. So, when I say a "real" Dom/me or submissive, I mean someone that understands their dynamic. Someone that understands the dynamic nature of the dynamics. The understanding that comes from within themselves so they know the "real" self, regardless if it is submissive, dominant or combination of both. So, for the short answer, a REAL Dom/me or REAL submissive is one that knows and understands their dynamic. |
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